Is car safety technology replacing common sense?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Stan
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Unsure as I am about which NG you are replying to, I congratulate you on
being one voice of sanity....

Auto makers are desparately trying to reduce their exposure to frivilous
lawsuits and are introducing "vehicle dynamic systems"..... Small wonder in
a society where people don't expect a cup of coffee to be "hot".

Many years ago, I spent insufficient time trying to learn how to be a good
race driver... I learned a lot - but, since you aren't watching me Sunday
afternoon - earning a whole whack of money for going real fast and turning
left - I didn't make it. But I did come away with a better than average idea
of vehicle dynamics and the physics implicated....

I welcome my ABS.... I don't have to spend time modulating brake pressure...
Interestingly, if I did modulate my brake pressure right - my ABS would
never cycle....

I recently purchased an 05 Mustang for my loving bride.... This car has a
traction control system. If I wanted to be an abject idiot, this system has
the possibilty of changing my day.... If I use my head, the system enhances
my driving experience....

Electronic controls will never mitigate "stupid"..... but they go a long way
to keeping "ooops" from happening....
 
Jim said:
And what case is it that you pointed out?
Click to expand...

The one you trimmed out:
A good example of this that many people are well aware of is the ABS on
something like a 1T pickup, particularly when unloaded. What happens is
that you are doing moderate braking and hit a bump of some sort, due to
the stiff suspension, the wheel bounces up and out of contact with the
road and stops rotating until it contacts the road again. The ABS
mistakenly thinks the wheel has locked up since it lacks a sensor input
to tell it the wheel lost contact with the road (a Z axis accelerometer
would probably do the trick).

As a result the ABS freaks out and you loose a substantial amount of
braking capability for a short time. For some people this has resulted
in bumper taps in situations where the speed and distance would have
provided plenty of braking space if the ABS had not malfunctioned.
People who drive these vehicles regularly learn to scan the road surface
when braking and momentarily release the brakes when crossing any kind
of bump in order to prevent the ABS caused loss of braking.
Click to expand...

The clear case where the manufacturers have done nothing to address a
safety defect in their ABS systems since the fix would probably increase
the manufacturing cost $10 for the additional sensor needed to detect
the fault condition.
 
As well as I think the biggest benefit of these technologies is for less
skilled drivers, which so far as I can tell, make up a large portion of
those on the road.
Click to expand...

IMO

As well as I think the biggest benefit of these technologies is for those
drivers who are less skilled than they think they are, which so far as I can
tell, make up a all of the drivers on the road.

HTN
 
Chevy Man said:
Would be nice if it could jam all cell phones nearby. Maybe then people
could concentrate on driving instead of talking. This would go a long way
toward collision avoidance.
Click to expand...

The system can be only as good as the people who design it. I remember when
ABS braking first came out they put them on commercial trucks first
(mandated by Federal Law) and more than a few good drivers lost their lifes
because of a flawed braking system. It got so bad that one State even went
against the Feds and Ban the Trucks with the ABS system.... the brakes were
releasing and guys just couldn't get stopped or the brakes wouldn't release
at all and the driver would miss a few days of work while they tried to get
his truck to move out of the parking lot. A few years later, after the
'bugs' were supposedly worked out, they started putting them on cars. That
computer sensory stuff is dangerous. It might be just dandy if everything is
working OK, but eventually it will malfunction and it could cost you your
life. (just like airbags were killing short people & children when they
first came out). That crap is why your $5000 plastic car sells for $30000.
 
Duncan said:
The system can be only as good as the people who design it. I remember
when ABS braking first came out they put them on commercial trucks first
(mandated by Federal Law) and more than a few good drivers lost their
lifes because of a flawed braking system. It got so bad that one State
even went against the Feds and Ban the Trucks with the ABS system.... the
brakes were releasing and guys just couldn't get stopped or the brakes
wouldn't release at all and the driver would miss a few days of work while
they tried to get his truck to move out of the parking lot. A few years
later, after the 'bugs' were supposedly worked out, they started putting
them on cars. That computer sensory stuff is dangerous. It might be just
dandy if everything is working OK, but eventually it will malfunction and
it could cost you your life. (just like airbags were killing short people
& children when they first came out). That crap is why your $5000 plastic
car sells for $30000.
Click to expand...

Usually when the ABS system detects a problem, it deactivates itself, and
you have standard brakes.
 
Have had ABS for years. No problems.

DAS

For direct replies replace nospam with schmetterling
---
 
It seems my safe driving record will be equalled by some fool in a modern
car with out a clue of any drivng skills .Loud music texting arguing
speeding no worries the technoledgy will compensate just like spell checkers
eh?
 
"Spending time this week in the all-around exceptional Volvo S80...has
been an unmitigated joy. But truth be told, I'm feeling a little
dizzied by the array of electronic collision-avoidance nannies looking
out for me as I drive..."

Wired Magazine article:http://301url.com/dyu
Click to expand...

Well, if that is the case then what you might want to do is start
driving something very simple with no safety features, mechanical
brakes and a touring top. Have fun....
 
I was in a situation a few months back on the highway at about 65, wet road
and a very hard swerve. Fact is, my other car probably would have taken me
down the median sideways; the stability control allowed me to cut the wheel
hard left, then hard right to avoid an accident. It did not take away the
things I'd have done to (possibly) recover, it eliminated the need for them.
Click to expand...

But was the reason you needed to swerve in the first place a result of
following too close or driving too fast for the conditions? I'd
actually rather let stupid drivers get hurt instead of have their
vehicle rescue their clumsy ass.
 
As well as I think the biggest benefit of these technologies is for less
skilled drivers, which so far as I can tell, make up a large portion of
those on the road.
Click to expand...

Seems like the easier, cheaper and safer solution is to make it harder
to get a driver's license, and easier for incompetent drivers to lose
their license. The tolerance most states have for bad driving is
unbelievable, especially in the southwest (California with it's
complete lack of ability to enforce it's license requirements, Arizona
with effectively permanent licenses...).

Just retest everybody every time their license renewal comes up,
regardless of age or driving record. And make drivers licenses expire
at least as often as registration tags, if not sooner.
 
Not one person here (on this cross posted diatribe) will admit that their
driving is flawed - Every last one of us has "moods", distractions, good
days, bad days - flaws ad nauseum and we carry those flaws with us where
ever we go....
Click to expand...

Actually, I will. I have a tendancy to pull in too close ahead of
people hiding in my blind spot due to lack of windows other than the
windshield and cab doors on my Tradesman (though I would argue that
the other driver is a co-moron to such an incident for hiding in an
obviously blind spot of a large vehicle). The blind spot eliminator
fisheye is also no help when the co-moron is driving a highway-colored
vehicle (tan, grey, silver, white, black and similar colors) and is
not driving with their lights on, especially under conditions they're
required to be lit up anyway (in tunnels, driving in the rain or fog,
on roads with poor visibility, etc). Pretty much have to drive as a
two-man crew to avoid the problem.
 
I am shocked that some lobby group has pushed through legislation to
mandate the anti-roll-over robot sysyem. First of all, these excessive
technologies make autos too expensive for middle class people to buy and
maintain.
Click to expand...

That might not entirely be a bad thing if it means we get a functional
transportation infrastructure that isn't so mismanaged that the only
possible tools for many jobs are expensive (for the average household)
airline tickets and personal cars. Pretty much the rest of the first
world, even over geographically large, population sparse areas tend to
have better mass transit than you will find in most North American
cities (and pretty much all but New York, Seattle and Portland in the
US).
Secondly, lets supose that a driver swervs the car to avoid
school children but the robot takes control to prevent a roll-over and
so runs down the children. I believe these robot control ideas are nuts
and I also think anti-lock braks and side air bags can't be cost
justified.
Click to expand...

I think airbags could be cost justified if the steering wheel airbag
was replaced with a steel pike by mandate. If collisions resulted in
gauranteed death to the driver, that might just provide enough
incentive to make bad drivers and Californians learn what they're
doing before they get behind the wheel.
 
It adds about $100 to the price of a car.

Secondly, lets supose that a driver swervs the car to avoid


I think perhaps you are nuts. The anti-roll is not going to stop you from
going where you want to go. It is designed to help you go where you want to
go, such as to avoid the children while not going sideways and taking out 20
adults at the bus stop. It does not take over the steering, it controls
wheel spin and skidding.
Click to expand...

How often does one see adults at school bus stops after the first week
of school? Seems like any parent who is going to take enough time out
of their morning to wait for the bus with their kids is just going to
drive them in themselves anyway...
 
Depending on your comprehension and reading skills..... and, using an
average from 2004, 39 people died on highways in the USA while you were
reading this post.... What kind of price tag should we put on a human being?
Where do we say "enough is enough"?
Click to expand...

Along those same lines, I have a real hard time with people who are
pissed off about terrorism but think Daylight Savings Time is a good
thing, given that on an average year, DST kills about 6000 Americans
on US highways per year due to fatigue resulting from needlessly
screwing with people's sleep, and terrorism, on it's worst year, kills
about 3000 Americans.
For some, the idea that an imperfect electromechanical device is better than
some jerk-off that thinks he is Gods gift to tires can be a hard pill to
swallow.... I would rather put my families safety in the hands of that
electronic device than leave their well being in the hands of someone that
bases their driving skill on the fact that they still have most of their
original family members....
Click to expand...

I'd rather have the safety-device overdependant, and the God's Gift to
Tires types both did not have driver's licenses.

http://learn.to/quote please...
 
Well, if that is the case then what you might want to do is start
driving something very simple with no safety features, mechanical
brakes and a touring top. Have fun....
Click to expand...

Wait, there's brakes that aren't fundamentally mechanical? How the
hell do those work, given what it's trying to stop is mechanical?
 
Paul Johnson said:
I'd
actually rather let stupid drivers get hurt instead of have their
vehicle rescue their clumsy ass.
Click to expand...

So the stupid driver swerves and also takes out your mother, wife, and lazy
brother in law, but if the stupid driver is killed too, you'd rejoice?
Brilliant thinking.
 
"Spending time this week in the all-around exceptional Volvo S80...has
been an unmitigated joy. But truth be told, I'm feeling a little
dizzied by the array of electronic collision-avoidance nannies looking
out for me as I drive..."

Wired Magazine article: http://301url.com/dyu
Click to expand...


IMO there's a difference between real safety equipment and nanny-isms.

Take lawnmowers for example: deflectors and shields that prevent the
mower from throwing a rock straight in the operators face are real,
practical, valid safety devices and have been around since the 50s.

Blade brakes and "dead man" switches, on the other hand, are
nanny-devices that replace the common sense skills that I was taught by
age 10: "Don't stick your hand under a running mower, and turn it off if
you walk away from it."


In the same vein, brake/gearshift interlocks on cars are nanny devices
that replace the common-sense training of "put your damn foot on the
brake when you shift into gear unless you are 100% ready for the car to
move."
 
IMO there's a difference between real safety equipment and nanny-isms.

Take lawnmowers for example: deflectors and shields that prevent the
mower from throwing a rock straight in the operators face are real,
practical, valid safety devices and have been around since the 50s.

Blade brakes and "dead man" switches, on the other hand, are
nanny-devices that replace the common sense skills that I was taught by
age 10: "Don't stick your hand under a running mower, and turn it off if
you walk away from it."

In the same vein, brake/gearshift interlocks on cars are nanny devices
that replace the common-sense training of "put your damn foot on the
brake when you shift into gear unless you are 100% ready for the car to
move."
Click to expand...

I was thinking more of devices like ABS, seat belts, dual braking
system, disc brakes, air bags, safety glass, improved suspensions,
improved tires, etc. But yes it is also a good idea to have a car
that can't be started unless it is in park and the foot is on the
brake. I wish we didn't have to design cars for the lowest common
denominator, but we do.
 
Wait, there's brakes that aren't fundamentally mechanical? How the
hell do those work, given what it's trying to stop is mechanical?
Click to expand...

Most automotive brakes are hydra-mechanical but the name is
abbreviated to hydraulic. I was speaking of mechanical brakes
actuated with with rods connected to a pedal.
 
IMO there's a difference between real safety equipment and nanny-isms.

Take lawnmowers for example: deflectors and shields that prevent the
mower from throwing a rock straight in the operators face are real,
practical, valid safety devices and have been around since the 50s.

Blade brakes and "dead man" switches, on the other hand, are
nanny-devices that replace the common sense skills that I was taught by
age 10: "Don't stick your hand under a running mower, and turn it off if
you walk away from it."
Click to expand...

And here was I thinking that the '"dead man" switch' was to make sure
that the self-propelled mower, snow thrower, etc., wouldn't just keep
charging ahead if the operator slipped and fell or actually even dropped
dead. How silly of me!

Perce
 
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