Synthetic oil in an 850 with 150K miles

[Stephen Henning]

So who here has had a B230F fail yet after regular oil maintenance with
a synthetic?

So who here has had a B230F fail after regular oil maintenance with
regular oil?

Such reports are meaningless unless they are analyzed statistically.\

It does prove something -- it proves you are making conjectures without
data!

Precisely, you can't say something does something like extend engine
life if there is no data. There is no data.

I can tell you one thing, Mobil 1 is not recommended for aviation
applications. That is straight from the Mobil 1 website. It does meet
API tests and ratings, but so does regular oil.

 

[jmcgill]

Precisely, you can't say something does something like extend engine
life if there is no data. There is no data.

We're coming from different places. I'm looking for a compelling reason
*not* to use synthetic oil.

 

[mjc]

Stephen Henning wrote:




We're coming from different places. I'm looking for a compelling reason
*not* to use synthetic oil.

It's pretty clear that synthetic oil - maybe especially Mobil
1 - is more likely to cause leaks in older engines that have been
run on conventional oil. Japanese cars seem less prone to these
leaks, and Volvos more prone to them. I don't know about American
cars. If you drive a Volvo, the closest you will get to a
consensus (not very close!) is that turbos and early model 850's
will likely benefit, and it probably isn't worth the risk in the
other Volvo engines. The same seems to apply to synthetic blends.

 

[Ken Pisichko]

... If you plan to keep the car,
then since the damage is already done you may want to spring for
new oil seals and then keep using synthetic - it should prevent
the lifters from sticking, anyway.

Regular oil changes with an oil that SH or current additives all you need to "keep
the lifters from sticking". Synthetic oil in and by itself is not needed to
prevent valves from sticking - and I have an 83 Volvo 240GL, an 83 Plymouth
Voyager, a 96 Volvo 850, and a 1954 Case D tractor to illustrate my point.

Ken, Canada

 

[mjc]

:




Regular oil changes with an oil that SH or current additives all you need to "keep
the lifters from sticking". Synthetic oil in and by itself is not needed to
prevent valves from sticking - and I have an 83 Volvo 240GL, an 83 Plymouth
Voyager, a 96 Volvo 850, and a 1954 Case D tractor to illustrate my point.

Ken, Canada

I was referring to a specific, known issue with the first
couple of years the Volvo 850 was produced. The oil passages in
the head were/are very small, and for the first couple of years
there is a fairly high rate of failure for the hydraulic lifters.
But hey, this is usenet, so one has to expect gratuitous abuse!

 

[Stephen Henning]

We're coming from different places. I'm looking for a compelling reason
*not* to use synthetic oil.

The one reason not to use it is the added expense with no real benefit.

I am looking for one reason to use it. Sure, it tests better in the
lab, but no one has translated this to real world benefits. Not one.

No one has mentioned that Volvo has permitted synthetic oils to be used
in its cars made in 1981 and later if they meet the API Service specs
listed by Volvo which in 1981 were SE-CC and SF-CC. However, Volvo has
never recommended synthetic oils.

This is per the owners manuals which are available on line.

 

[Mike F]

The one reason not to use it is the added expense with no real benefit.

I am looking for one reason to use it. Sure, it tests better in the
lab, but no one has translated this to real world benefits. Not one.

No one has mentioned that Volvo has permitted synthetic oils to be used
in its cars made in 1981 and later if they meet the API Service specs
listed by Volvo which in 1981 were SE-CC and SF-CC. However, Volvo has
never recommended synthetic oils.

This is per the owners manuals which are available on line.

I use synthetic because it flows better when cold - keep a bottle of
regular oil outside in the winter, beside a bottle of synthetic. My
synthetic 5W40 gurgles when I shake the bottle at my typical winter
temperatures, whereas the bottle of regular 5W30 does not.

Synthetic also has higher heat resistance, so in my turbocharged cars,
and air-cooled motorcycle, snow blower and lawnmower this higher heat
resistance makes me feel like I'm protecting them better, even if
regular oil has enough heat resistance for the temperatures reached.

So there's 2 reasons - better protection when cold and easier cold
starts, and it makes me feel like I'm doing something for high
temperature protection.

--
Mike F.
Thornhill (near Toronto), Ont.

Replace tt with t (twice!) and remove parentheses to email me directly.
(But I check the newsgroup more often than this email address.)

 

[jmcgill]

The one reason not to use it is the added expense with no real benefit.

Synthetic oil is subjected to higher quality control standards; how's
that for a benefit?

I am looking for one reason to use it. Sure, it tests better in the
lab, but no one has translated this to real world benefits. Not one.

I am looking for a reason not to use it. Sure it is met with
skepticism, but on one has translated this to real world risks. Not one.

 

[jmcgill]

It's pretty clear that synthetic oil - maybe especially Mobil 1 - is
more likely to cause leaks in older engines that have been run on
conventional oil.

People can actually substantiate this, reporting leaks on their Volvo
motors, clearly caused by switching to synthetic oil?

Just how "clear" is it, and where are the data? Is it "clear" enough
for a class action suit?

 

[jch]

Synthetic oil is subjected to higher quality control standards; how's
that for a benefit?


I am looking for a reason not to use it. Sure it is met with
skepticism, but on one has translated this to real world risks. Not one.

_____
There is a Mechanical Engineer in Bath, Maine who has rebuilt many Volvo
D24T engines. His experience with Mobil-1 in these engines after an
overhaul (using a 40,000 mile oil and filter change interval) is that
after 100,000 miles of operation there is _no measurable wear_. I
assume that his observations include crankshaft bearings and
pistons/cylinders, cam shaft and valve guides. If you want more
details, please let me know, and i will ask him.

Based on his observations i switched my 1989 Volvo 240 Sedan (250,000
km) to Mobil-1 about 5 years ago. I have seen _no_ evidence of leaking
seals. My son's 1986 Volvo 240 Wagon (465,000 km) likewise received
Mobil-1 about 4 years ago. There has been _no_ sign of oil leaks. I
changed the timing belt a month ago, and did not bother replacing the
three front oil seals as everything was completely oil free and dry.
The oil consumption of this engine was about 1 liter/1000 km. With
Mobil-1 it is down to 1/4 liter/1000 km. I recently changed the oil
after 40,000 km, and it was quite clean. More importantly, i also
checked the throttle body (TB). It was also clean. Before the change
to Mobil-1, i removed the TB and had to clean out a lot of gummy, brown
deposit.

In my experience, Mobil-1 is a superior product. The ability of the oil
to cling to metal surfaces better than conventional dyno oil is an
advantage during engine startups. Less wear will be the result.
Remember that startups cause a lot of the wear in an engine.

 

[mjc]

People can actually substantiate this, reporting leaks on their Volvo
motors, clearly caused by switching to synthetic oil?

Just how "clear" is it, and where are the data? Is it "clear" enough
for a class action suit?

Do a search in this newsgroup. You will see a pattern of
people buying a Volvo, - usually a 240 - switching it to
synthetic because they want the best oil for it, and then getting
leaking seals. It happened to me and to many others. I still
recommend synthetic oil for the 850 with its hydraulic lifters
and small oil passages, and for turbo engines, but for normally
aspirated Volvo engines it doesn't seem to be worth the risk of
leaks. No, not enough hard data for a class-action lawsuit, just
years of observations, and personal experience. You can believe
me or not, as you like. I won't have to buy you any oil seals. ;-)

 

[jmcgill]

Do a search in this newsgroup. You will see a pattern of people buying
a Volvo, - usually a 240 - switching it to synthetic because they want
the best oil for it, and then getting leaking seals.

Correlation is not causation, but strong evidence that these oils that
are being heavily marketed to consumers for use in their high-mileage
engines, would be interesting to confront the oil companies with.

I also wonder this: Are seals worse than rings and cams?

 

[mjc]

Correlation is not causation, but strong evidence that these oils that
are being heavily marketed to consumers for use in their high-mileage
engines, would be interesting to confront the oil companies with.

I also wonder this: Are seals worse than rings and cams?

There is no evidence that non-synthetic oils, used as
directed and changed regularly, cause excessive wear. The one
study I looked at showed the opposite: that in NYC taxi cabs,
synthetic and non-synthetic oils performed the same. As others
have noted, synthetic should provide better protection in extreme
temps, but for normal driving - and especially in Volvo red block
engines - you will see little or no difference in wear.

But enough of this. No one's mind is going to change.

 

[jmcgill]

There is no evidence that non-synthetic oils, used as directed and
changed regularly, cause excessive wear. The one study I looked at
showed the opposite: that in NYC taxi cabs, synthetic and non-synthetic
oils performed the same. As others have noted, synthetic should provide
better protection in extreme temps, but for normal driving - and
especially in Volvo red block engines - you will see little or no
difference in wear.

But enough of this. No one's mind is going to change.

I drive in an environment that routinely sees extremely high
temperatures. This subject is genuinely of interest to me.

People keep coming back to a conservative argument in favor of
old-fashioned oil, that smells like what we call in the IT industry, "FUD."

I believe you when you suggest there is nothing wrong with standard
lubricants. I'm not trying to suggest that there needs to be a
*problem* with them in order for synthetics to have merit. And I don't
see synthetics as particularly expensive, either.

According to your data, synthetic oil performs at least as well as
standard, and no specific problems have been attributed to its use,
aside from anecdotal reports of seal failure.

 

[John Robertson]

Use only fully synthetic as the mixes are a rip off .REAL synthetic means a
clean engine no gunk build up and longer life for the engine ,as for a turbo
its a must .The original synthetic did not have elastasizers in it which
swell the seals slightly, now this is ADDED the oil is brilliant .With
synthetic you need not change the oil as often so in this way you save on
the higher costs JUST CHANGE THE FILTER AS USUAL .No doubt your engine is
now cleaned out of all the rubbish and scum that dino oils create. Be
patient and you will find all is ok.Provided you don't use castrol which
many say is just a highly modified dino oil .I use Mobil one or Bp visco
5000.
My neighbour changed to synthetic oil Mobil one and I did the change all was
well till she went to the mechanic with a new container of Mobil one to put
in the car he switched oils and you could feel the difference .HE HAD HER
SYNTHETIC OIL STILL ON HIS SHELF IN THE WORKSHOP .

 

[John Robertson]

BY THE WAY our three Volvos are high mileage cars and no oil leaks

 

[Stephen Henning]

I disolves buildups and makes gaskets and seals more vulnerable to
leaking. Anything good at lubricating is good at leaking. There is a
compromise there someplace. That is the reason for different
viscosities and grades.