athol said:
Point taken. Some people will pay top dollar for a cheap product
with a fancy brand label.
And the point should also be made that those same people rarely
have the proper training in servicing an air conditioning system
nor the knowledge of the applicable safety measures that need to
be adhered to.
Last time I checked, every one of my posts has a sig on the end,
containing a link to a .au web site that contains my real email
address munged with a piece that is clearly indicated as the
piece to remove... It hasn't been a problem for anybody else so
far.
Since you're the one raising an objection here, evidently it has
been a problem for you.
Do you europeans really believe that anyone should be
inconvenienced and have to fire up a web browser to find out the
true location that someone is posting from just to avoid the
issue that you're raising? Most people read usenet posts from
the top to the bottom, most if not all business correspondence
has the pertinent information such as -location- at the top.
The news server usage policy requires a valid email address to be
used, and they are the ones who suggest privacy.net - they don't
allow munging in headers. I _only_ munge to avoid spam.
And I get along quite nicely by using a mail client that removes
spam before it hits my computer, avoiding anything that would
make my location inconvenient to discern by another.
Oh, and the news server is in Germany.
Further adding to the confusion of where you are located.
Sorry, again, not my fault.
Depends where you hide. Hiding in the sewer could achieve that
result.
Don't know... I've never felt the need to hide anywhere for any
reason.
I don't own a donkey, and if I did, it wouldn't have been
inconvenienced by your post.
Good one...
Oh, and I'm not foreign to where I am.
Given the objections that you've raised, you should probably do
something to make that a little clearer to the rest of us.
I don't believe that I did. I was just taking a small poke at the
blatant stupidity of a certain Dubya.
You -do- realize that I am but one of about 280 million people
and again, have little to do with anything being done by one of
our leaders... Poke all you want, it still doesn't accomplish
anything.
If it isn't legal to use, why is it legal to buy labelled for that
application?!?
For the same reason that guns are legal to purchase and own but
not legal to use in certain applications. IOWs, the product is
so common that it can't be banned, but it's use under
circumstances where it is deemed harmful, is.
Indeed. And in some parts of the world, they haven't implemented
bans on the basis of false, inadequate or misleading information
or uninformed opinion.
That's precisely the point. In the U.S. the information is
inadequate, and remains so at the hand of those who sell and
market HC refrigerant blends since it is -their- responsibility
to prove its safety, something that they have not been able to do
after over a decades time.
I guess some countries managed to learn lessons about the use and
handling of flammable gasses, and some didn't. (Hindenburg ring a
bell?)
Yep. stupid people will buy it pre-packaged. If it was legal,
you'd be able to buy it pre-blended to the right ratio from
just about every A/C supplier and probably fuel distributors.
It -is- available pre-blended in the right ratios. That is not
the point, nor is it an issue.
If it was legal, it'd probably be _cheaper_.
So would Heroin, Cocaine, Anthrax and Plutonium.
Yep. I'm in a country where you can't get _any_ R12. Recovered
R12 can only be "cleaned" and reinserted into the same vehicle
legally. If the quantity is below the level required for the A/C
to work properly, the vehicle's A/C has to be converted or
de-commissioned.
Then I take it that your country has no provision (just like the
U.S.) for cheap air conditioning in its constitution. IOWs,
(just like the U.S.) if you want cold air blowing into you car,
it will cost -you- money. You should probably know, I'm not a
big fan of entitlements.
From some posts here recently, I'm getting the impression that
you can still buy R12 in the USA.
Yes you can, -if- you have the proper certificates and in some
states, the proper licenses. It's around $30 per pound
wholesale, but the demand is getting lesser and lesser with time.
We've not been able to get it
for _several_ years. That's insane.
Am I wrong in thinking that -that- is what your elected officials
enacted into law?
But it takes more than labeling.
So the law is causing the increased risk of injury. Hmm...
Circular logic.
I haven't seen a flame type leak detector used in over 20 years,
and [they] are not the only cause found responsible for the
resultant fire and burned flesh.
The last one I saw was when I was an apprentice. The comment was
mostly intended to be tongue in cheek.
Tongue in cheek and someone getting their face burned off don't
go too well together.
I don't have _any_ diesel or petrol (gasoline) on board, thanks.
So, this vehicle that you can't get R-12 for runs on what?
I just don't happen to believe that there is any justifcation
for micro$oft style "fear, uncertainty and doubt" being used to
promote expensive solutions by eliminate cheaper technically
superior solutions.
Tantamount to saying that it's okay to transport gasoline in a
plastic milk jug when it's time to re-fuel your lawn mower.
(do they have lawn mowers in Austria?)
The whole thing argues back to whether the system being retro-
fitted is of sufficient strength to contain the flammable gas
should the need arise. Err on the side of caution, hat way there
are fewer recalls and fewer lawsuits.
Are you going to tell me that R134a will
out perform propane/butane in an originally R12 application?
I have no way of knowing since I have never done an HC conversion
on a motor vehicle. Abiding by the laws of my country has served
me well in keeping me out of jail and away from monetary
sanctions. The argument is not whether HC blends function as an
efficient replacement refrigerant, the argument is strictly over
safety (which hasn't been demonstrated yet) and compliance with
he laws.
I can tell you that every R-12 to R134a conversion that -I've-
done has performed very satisfactorily, but then I won't do one
if I'd be forced to cut corners and not follow recommended
procedures, and, the cost of all of these conversions has been
less dollars to the customer than what a standard R-12 recharge
would have cost them given the current pricing of R-12 in our
marketplace.
My point exactly. Thank you. A perfectly viable drop in
replacement has been legislated out of use.
You -can't- "legislated out of use" something that doesn't exist.
The only "drop in replacement" for R-12 is R-12. Even if all
that needs to be done is to affix a label near the service port,
then by definition, -that- refrigerant is no longer a "drop in
replacement" since it's use dictates that additional steps be
taken to facilitate its use. The additional steps needed when
performing a conversion no matter what the gas is being used are
for the benefit of the consumer as much as they are for anything
else. If specific service fitting weren't mandated for each
different gas available, there would be cross contamination
issues that would add extra cost to the vehicle owner. Many
recovery/recycle machines are not equipped to handle flammable
gasses because at the time of their design, the use of HC
refrigerants in them was not anticipated. I've seen the results
of an AC recovery machine that was mistakenly connected to the
Schraeder valve on a EFI fuel system. The damage was
catastrophic to the machine, the vehicle and the numbskull that
was operating it. This all plays part and parcel to the -why-
that myself and others who frequent these groups take a very dim
view of amateurs who attempt to service their AC systems without
a hint of formal training.
Consequently,
people have to use the more expensive, poorer performing
gases that are legal.
I don't consider R-134a at $3 a pound to be all that expensive,
and the performance achieved with it tie directly to the efforts
made in doing the job correctly.
I can live with that. One just needs to be aware that there is
actually what passes for civilisation outside the USA, just as
the social structure in the USA passes for civilisation.
I am very aware of what you speak of here, it's one of the things
that make usenet spectacular, my only failing was not noticing
(digging) for the country of origin of your original post.
IIRC, there was recently mention in an SAE magazine of the EU
setting implementation timetables for phasing out R134a.
Said timetables depending on overcoming the technical issues that
are presently in the way... We'll see.
At the present rate, it'll arrive everywhere outside the USA
before 42V electricals. Of course, the USA will probably still
be making new R12 when everybody else has phased out R134a...
The U.S. isn't making any new R-12 and hasn't been in accordance
of the Montreal Protocol, which is something approaching 10 years
now.
Talk about world leading... [That should get a bite. ;-)]
No bite because your facts are in error.
Try China and/or Mexico.
There are plenty of countries that didn't sign and/or agree to
the provisions of the above mentioned treaty, they are still
cranking out tons of R-12 of questionable quality.
