freon replacement for '90 Volvo GL? - - help a poor girl

[Daniel J. Stern]

I believe in some European markets, "brake pipes" as they call them are
indeed made from some copper-containing alloy, or at least are available
aftermarket (and are legal) as I've seen them mentioned and advertised
in some British VW magazines (I used to have a neighbor who had an
English wife and was a huge VW fan; he'd pass on his magazines to me
when he was done with them)

"Copper containing alloy" is not the same as "copper". Copper lines *per
se* do not have the burst strength to be used in automotive hydraulic
brake systems unless their walls are HUGELY thicker than the common copper
piping that's available in brake-line sizes in North America -- and I
doubt there's any such extra-thick piping available. Copper-nickel alloys,
on the other hand, make perfectly good high-strength brake lines (or
"pipes").

AFAIK non-steel brake lines are not legal for street use in the US

A quick scan of FMVSS 105 does not show any specific requirement for
steel, but I didn't read it closely and carefully.

however. Now I have seen steel lines with a copper-colored coating, but
that is something completely different.

Right. There are all kinds of different anticorrosion treatments and
surface finishes. Terneplate is one of the more common ones, and generally
isn't copper colored, but it's not the only one.

 

[Steve]

I see. So instead of high temperature incineration to break down the
recovered R12 such that it ceases to be R12,

And becomes phosgene, among other nasties....

you think putting it
back into cars so that a significant percentage can leak out into the
atmosphere is a good thing? That percentage that ends up back in the
atmosphere is why I said that the USA is "continuing to add to the
problem."

Yes, I do. The simple fact is that the environment has natural
mechanisms that deal with and destroy R-12 that leaks into the air- as
evidenced by the remarkable recovery in high-altitude ozone levels in
the past several years. The problem WAS (not is) that we were
overwhelming those processes with the sheer volume of R-12 that we
released into the atmosphere for 50+ years. Remember that hairspray,
electronics testing "freeze" spray, shaving cream and those little horns
people carried to football games ALL dumped R-12 straight into the air
for years. And it was common practice to just dump R-12 out of auto A/C
systems into the air during repairs. Not so any longer.

Now that the world knows better and the rate of release into the
environment is down to a tiny fraction of a percent of what it used to
be, I see recycling and re-using R-12 as a very environmentally and
economically sound thing to do. Yes, some is still lost to the
atmosphere, but at a rate that is harmless. And unlike incineration this
doesn't create OTHER hazardous materials that have to be disposed of.

 

[Joe Smith]

Yes, I do. The simple fact is that the environment has natural
mechanisms that deal with and destroy R-12 that leaks into the air- as
evidenced by the remarkable recovery in high-altitude ozone levels in
the past several years. The problem WAS (not is) that we were
overwhelming those processes with the sheer volume of R-12 that we
released into the atmosphere for 50+ years. Remember that hairspray,
electronics testing "freeze" spray, shaving cream and those little horns
people carried to football games ALL dumped R-12 straight into the air
for years. And it was common practice to just dump R-12 out of auto A/C
systems into the air during repairs. Not so any longer.

That is the funny part. After gazillions of tonns of R-12 were dumped
into the atmosphere, suddenly the tiny incremental percentage started
to matter.
Some politicians made a career out of R-12 prohibition. So, instead of
spending $20 to recharge your A/C system, it requires $100's out of
consumer pocket. Such cars would disappear within ~10 years anyway, so
minor R-12 release would not have mattered at all. The whole thing is
way out of proportion ...

 

[athol]

There's lots of info on the internet about this. You can find out that
the mixture should be 60/40 propane/isobutane or 78/22. Both isobutane
(R600a) and propane (R290) are considered refrigerants by themselves.

Indeed. Someone who looked at this thread but didn't post to it made
comment in another newsgroup to the effect that his A/C started off as
R12, got converted to R134a and underperformed _badly_, then got filled
with straight domestic (BBQ) propane and has been working flawlessly
for two years now... No butane blending, and apparently colder than it
ever was even with R12. He didn't even consider the oil - I'm guessing
that it is running ester with the propane without any problems!

Another problem with this is supply - often when you buy propane (or
isobutane), it's far from pure and contains moisture.

I don't know where you are, but I've never come across moisture
problems in any commercial LPG, propane or butane in any part of
Australia. The most common way that water is introduced into an LPG
fuel system is because the filler cap is missing (illegal) and there
was water on the outside of the check valve in the filler before the
bowser nozzle was attached. The amount of water in commercially
supplied LPG (automotive variable blend), propane or butane here is
well within what a reciever/drier can handle.

And of course there's the old, "It's going to leak out, become a bomb
and kill us all." argument. Actually the risk is very low, there's so
little involved, and the air fuel mixture has to be fairly precise for
any explosion, but it is possible in an enclosed garage, or an
underground garage where the heavier than air propane may pool.

Having worked extensively on LPG fuelled vehicles, I can assure you
the danger posed by petrol leaking from a car is far worse! In
spite of LPG being heavier than air, the amount of airflow needed to
carry it away is miniscule!

 

[Barry S.]

That is the funny part. After gazillions of tonns of R-12 were dumped
into the atmosphere, suddenly the tiny incremental percentage started
to matter.
Some politicians made a career out of R-12 prohibition. So, instead of
spending $20 to recharge your A/C system, it requires $100's out of
consumer pocket. Such cars would disappear within ~10 years anyway, so
minor R-12 release would not have mattered at all. The whole thing is
way out of proportion ...

When I was a bit younger, in the late 80s, there was a gentleman who
was teaching me to fly R/C airplanes. In his personal plane, he had
pneumatically actuated landing gear. The way he charged the system
was with a can of R-12 refrigerant -- Which was cheap and widely
available. It was about a dollar or two a can at the time.

I suspect he's long since changed the way he actuates his landing
gear.


__________________
Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'.
N38.6 W121.4

 

[djtcz]

snip< ... So I was rather surprised

I seriously doubt you found "original copper" brake lines on any Volvo,
made in any year, sold in any market.

There's copper, then there's copper.
My 1975 245 had white painted (epoxy) lines that rusted thru where
the fittings had cut the finish.


http://www.cda.org.uk/Megab2/corr_rs/is49/sec9.htm

 

[John Robertson]

GREAT TO SEE YOU BACK DANIEL YOU KNOW YOUR STUFF !!!!!

 

[John Robertson]

Imagine a normal accident when butane or any other flammable gas is involved
in the condenser .It could turn a normal every day minor prang in to an
inferno !

 

[athol]

Imagine a normal accident when butane or any other flammable gas is involved
in the condenser .It could turn a normal every day minor prang in to an
inferno !

Took you a while to think of it? Don't forget that LPG is already used as
a fuel, and that the quantity in the A/C is quite small...

Oh, and if you're worried about flammable gas in the condenser, you'd best
get rid of the R12 or R134a immediately.

I'd rather have propane and butane in the A/C than _any_ petrol
(gasoline) in the vehicle _at all_. That stuff's far more dangerous!

 

[Handywired]

I had my '92 converted to the new stuff... it only cost $175, and that was
using new Volvo parts. There's a conversion kit that Volvo sells. I didn't
have the dealer do it though.

It works fine so far.

-jeff

 

[Al Haunts]

Took you a while to think of it? Don't forget that LPG is already used as
a fuel, and that the quantity in the A/C is quite small...

Oh, and if you're worried about flammable gas in the condenser, you'd best
get rid of the R12 or R134a immediately.

I'd rather have propane and butane in the A/C than _any_ petrol
(gasoline) in the vehicle _at all_. That stuff's far more dangerous!

I think the fire/explosion risk from using LPG as a vehicle
refrigerant is small, but it is there.

Comparing it to using gasoline as a motor fuel ignores the fact that
fuel lines & components (on modern cars anyway) are not located inside
the pasenger compartment.

That evaporator full of pressurised LPG beside my right ankle would at
least make me think about quitting smoking <grin>

As far as conventional refrigerants go, at least they are not
flammable at atmospheric pressure. Expose R12 to open flame though
and the result is phosgene gas. From a safety viewpoint, I think
R134A is the best of what is commonly/economically available right
now.

Regards, Al.

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

Don't forget that LPG is already used as a fuel

....in a system specifically designed to store, handle, transport and meter
it, yes.

and that the quantity in the A/C is quite small...

....and that automotive A/C systems were *not* specifically designed to
store, handle, transport or meter a flammable refrigerant...

Oh, and if you're worried about flammable gas in the condenser, you'd
best get rid of the R12 or R134a immediately.

Neither R12 nor R134a is flammable.

I'd rather have propane and butane in the A/C than _any_ petrol
(gasoline) in the vehicle _at all_.

That preference is based on no science whatsoever.

-Stern

 

[Jeff Sc.]

Yes, R-12 when combusted turns into toxic gas, we were
all warned during AC training not to vent R-12 into the intake
system of a running vehicle, but in over 25 years of servicing
AC, I've never seen or heard of it happening.

<hand raised>

Er, I have ...

</hand raised>

1979 VW Rabbit Diesel...had a nasty leak in the line to the condenser,
right in front of that long plastic horn to the AFB. Cleared out the
whole shop, as soon as we figured out what was so harsh about the air
all the sudden.

The good news is, with only 1.5 kg or so in the system, it burns quick
and then you can go back in...

--Fishplate





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